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Poster: BataviaSparky Date: Oct 9, 2010 10:07pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 10/9/40

Thank You! I'm pleased to know that someone's listening.

"Bring back ALL of our troops from Iraq and Afghanistan IMMEDIATELY!" is and has been my mantra and will be until WE finally do it.

WE are the only ones who can. Talk about it with everyone you know, and everyone you do not know. It's the only way it will ever happen. Educate yourself and VOTE FOR THE CANDIDATES WHO BELIEVE IN THE SAME THINGS YOU DO!

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Poster: dead-head_Monte Date: Oct 10, 2010 10:59am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 10/9/40

"Educate yourself and VOTE FOR THE CANDIDATES WHO BELIEVE IN THE SAME THINGS YOU DO!" (Please.)

Thank You! You've just posted your best BS (pun intended).

Don't forget about the imminent death of Net Neutrality. I've explained this recently, and it's laid out very thoroughly. Anyone reading this may get a quickie Net Neutrality education by reading my recent thread about it.

Verizon & Google kill Net Neutrality

Voters should consider putting HEAVY pressure on our U.S. Congress about this.

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Poster: dead-head_Monte Date: Oct 10, 2010 12:43pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 10/9/40

Peace Policy

International law and time-honored ethical traditions prohibit the targeting of noncombatants.

Government officials sometimes select military targets that result in civilian casualties (so called “collateral damage”). Despite these realities, most people in conflict zones, including children, mothers, and the elderly living at home, qualify for immunity according to international law.

Last summer was the deadliest for U.S. troops in nine years of war. Some senators and media commentators were complaining about limitations on air strikes.

You can’t argue that noncombatant life is sacred while killing noncombatants. As General Petraeus notes, “Every Afghan civilian death diminishes our cause.”

We urgently need to expand PEACE norms and practices - especially, participation and reconciliation - for a higher moral standard.

TELL U.S. CONGRESS TO STOP FUNDING UNNECESSARY U.S. WARS!

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Oct 10, 2010 1:14pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 10/9/40

"International law and time-honored ethical traditions prohibit the targeting of noncombatants."

Not trying to be a smartass here, but can you name me one conflict, anywhere, anytime, when noncombatants haven't been scythed down when it's been deemed expedient to do so? Happy for you to prove me wrong, but I think your 'time-honored ethical traditions' are nothing more than wishful thinking.

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Poster: dead-head_Monte Date: Oct 10, 2010 2:19pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 10/9/40

What I've written in my "Peace Policy" post, above -- ALL of it -- are excerpts from the Peace Policy web site. I copied and pasted a few sentences from this source, and put my paragraphs together. 100%. The link is given. You are correct to claim them as "my spoken words." I was speaking.

"Can you name me one conflict, anywhere, anytime, when noncombatants haven't been scythed down when it's been deemed expedient to do so?"

No, I cannot. Frankly, I am a horrible source to ask this question. I lack credentials. First off, I never served in the Military, nor have I ever been in combat. I was almost drafted and sent to Vietnam. Both my brothers served - neither one saw combat. Our dad served in WW2. Not sure about his combat role, he died in 1991. He never discussed his Service duty with the family. He flew missions over Europe and shot film of stuff in enemy territory. U.S. and Allied pilots and the air crews who flew missions over Nazi-occupied Europe and Germany, during WW2, were lucky to come home alive - even if they were disfigured or maimed.

Which brings me to ex-bombardier Howard Zinn, the famed Historian, Scholar, and Professor. Mr. Zinn was in the 490th Bombardment Group, bombing targets in Berlin, Czechoslovakia, and Hungary. I'd ask him your question. However, he just died this past January at age 87. But you can read his most famous book to get the BEST answer: A People's History of the United States

"On a post-doctoral research mission nine years after those bombing missions, Zinn visited the seaside resort near Bordeaux in southwest France where he interviewed residents, reviewed municipal documents and read wartime newspaper clippings at the local library. In 1966, Zinn returned to Royan after which he gave his fullest account of that research in his book, The Politics of History."

"On the ground, Zinn learned that the aerial bombing attacks — in which he participated — had killed more than 1000 French civilians as well as some German soldiers hiding near Royan to await the war's end, events that are described "in all accounts" he found as "une tragique erreur" that leveled a small but ancient city and "its population that was, at least officially, friend, not foe." In the book The Politics of History, Zinn described how the bombing was ordered — three weeks before the war in Europe ended — by military officials who were, in part, motivated more by the desire for career advancement than legitimate military objectives. He quotes the official history of the U.S. Army Air Forces' brief reference to the Eighth Air Force attack on Royan and also, in the same chapter, to the bombing of Pilsen in what was then Czechoslovakia. The official history stated, that the famous Skoda works in Pilsen "received 500 well-placed tons, and that "Because of a warning sent out ahead of time the workers were able to escape, except for five persons."

Zinn wrote, "I recalled flying on that mission, too, as deputy lead bombardier, and that we did not aim specifically at the 'skoda works' (which I would have noted, because it was the one target in Czechoslovakia I had read about) but dropped our bombs, without much precision, on the city of Pilsen. Two Czech citizens who lived in Pilsen at the time told me, recently, that several hundred people were killed in that raid (that is, Czechs) — not five."

Zinn said his experience as a wartime bombardier, combined with his research into the reasons for, and effects of the bombing of Royan and Pilsen, sensitized him to the ethical dilemmas faced by G.I.s during wartime. Zinn questioned the justifications for military operations that inflicted massive civilian casualties during the Allied bombing of cities such as Dresden, Royan, Tokyo, and Hiroshima and Nagasaki in World War II, Hanoi during the U.S. War in Vietnam, and Baghdad during the U.S. war in Iraq and the civilian casualties during bombings in Afghanistan during the U.S.'s current and nearly decade old war there. In his pamphlet, Hiroshima: Breaking the Silence written in 1995, he laid out the case against targeting civilians with aerial bombing.

Six years later, Zinn wrote: "Recall that in the midst of the Gulf War, the U.S. military bombed an air raid shelter, killing 400 to 500 men, women, and children who were huddled to escape bombs. The claim was that it was a military target, housing a communications center, but reporters going through the ruins immediately afterward said there was no sign of anything like that. I suggest that the history of bombing — and no one has bombed more than this nation — is a history of endless atrocities, all calmly explained by deceptive and deadly language like "accident," "military target," and "collateral damage".

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Oct 10, 2010 3:18pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 10/9/40

Monte - please forgive my brief response to your lengthy one, but nothing in what you say sways my believe that, though there may be some individual combatants whose conscience would cause them to hesitate, by and large, hapless, unarmed non-combatant civilians have always been, and always will be, the victims of conflicts they didn't choose.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Oct 11, 2010 5:44am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 10/9/40

Not that you needed me to step in here, but of course, you are right.

I did think on it for a while, but here's a "low grade war" example (the sorts I thought might provide a counter example): Chiricahua Apache and US troops fought a pitched battle at Apache Springs, 1861. Long story short: a sort of hostage situation ensues. Both sides capture "people" randomly passing thru; three "types" are recognized--US (white), Indian, and Mexican. US keep ANY Indian found; Indians keep ANY White folk found; THEY both kill Mexicans as "unimportant" in trading.

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Poster: dead-head_Monte Date: Oct 10, 2010 4:38pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 10/9/40

Rob says: "by and large, hapless, unarmed non-combatant civilians have always been, and always will be, the victims of conflicts they didn't choose"

Bingo! Thank You! Perfect. May I also pardon myself back to you, sir? If you consider me to be a fool, for repeating myself from above in our thread, I will consider it a compliment, coming from you.

The continuation of U.S.A.'s senseless wars is harming people, our economy, our security, and our environment -- IMMEASURABLY. Electing leaders to US Congress who want to FUND the wars in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Iraq - the war hawk people want even more wars (Iran, Yemen, Somolia, etc), is tantamount to electing eco-terrorists. I could argue that it's the same case for allowing our elected leaders to FUND our wars. But, this conversation is totally off the table. We NEVER get make our case.

The point being, if we DID NOT commit our Troops to unnecessary war in the first place, or, if we bring them home immediately - TODAY - I never would have said the paragraph above. What's required is the US Congress must NOT PASS the next War Funding appropriations Bill. Or at the least, the US Congress MUST have huge "strings" attached to all subsequent War Funding appropriations. I'm saying, tell "this" to US Congress. THIS is "our job." PRESSURE for Peace! (John Lennon's remembrance.)

How Congress Ends Wars

"In December 1970, Congress reacted to the U.S. invasion of Cambodia by passing the landmark Cooper-Church amendment to the Foreign Military Sales Bill. The amendment, named for and sponsored by Senators John Sherman Cooper (R-Kentucky) and Frank Church (D-Idaho), prohibited the use of any funds already appropriated for military spending on the introduction of additional U.S. troops into Cambodia."

I'm assuming BataviaSparky is thinking the exact same thing as me, and so are many others: "Bring back ALL of our troops from Iraq and Afghanistan IMMEDIATELY!"

A search of the Forums for my Posts saying this yields numerous times where I said "Bring 'em home NOW! - best way to support our troops"

Jazz live-music lovers may benefit by reading my November 29, 2008, Bring Our Troops Home post.

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Oct 10, 2010 5:17pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 10/9/40

It's a little too late at night for me to formulate an appropriate response so if it's ok with you I nominate Mr Young to speak for me:


There's colors on the street
Red, white and blue
People shufflin' their feet
People sleepin' in their shoes
But there's a warnin' sign on the road ahead
There's a lot of people sayin' we'd be better off dead
Don't feel like Satan, but I am to them
So I try to forget it, any way I can.

Keep on rockin' in the free world,
Keep on rockin' in the free world
Keep on rockin' in the free world,
Keep on rockin' in the free world.

I see a woman in the night
With a baby in her hand
Under an old street light
Near a garbage can
Now she puts the kid away, and she's gone to get a hit
She hates her life, and what she's done to it
There's one more kid that will never go to school
Never get to fall in love, never get to be cool.

Keep on rockin' in the free world,
Keep on rockin' in the free world
Keep on rockin' in the free world,
Keep on rockin' in the free world.

We got a thousand points of light
For the homeless man
We got a kinder, gentler,
Machine gun hand
We got department stores and toilet paper
Got styrofoam boxes for the ozone layer
Got a man of the people, says keep hope alive
Got fuel to burn, got roads to drive.

Keep on rockin' in the free world,
Keep on rockin' in the free world
Keep on rockin' in the free world,
Keep on rockin' in the free world.

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Poster: unclejohn52 Date: Oct 10, 2010 5:13pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 10/9/40

Couldn't agree more Monte. Unfortunately, the strategy - "starving the beast" - doesn't always work, at least not quickly. We were not out of Vietnam until 1972, a year and a half later, countless more lives and treasure lost. More recently, our previous "administration" went to war without funding appropriated, and found ways to disguise the true cost of funding these current wars, not to mention trying to "play down" all the body bags coming home without fanfare or dignity. Biggest disappointment in the current president - not fulfilling campaign promise to end the wars.

Yes, bring 'em home - and make sure they get the care and jobs they deserve for their service. We can surely do better than what our vets coming home from Vietnam got, because we SHOULD KNOW BETTER.

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Poster: dead-head_Monte Date: Oct 10, 2010 7:29pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Imagine Impeachment

"More recently, our previous "administration" went to war without funding appropriated, and found ways to disguise the true cost of funding these current wars, not to mention trying to "play down" all the body bags coming home without fanfare or dignity. Biggest disappointment in the current president - not fulfilling campaign promise to end the wars."

2nd biggest disappointment: No impeachment. You've described a tyrant. Dubya was guilty of committing Tyranny. Impeaching Bush & Cheney never required them committing any "high crimes or misdemeanors." Tyranny is what Bush & Cheney were guilty of. Our US Congress was bullied to death by the Bush & Cheney administration, and much worse. Congress had no existing "crimes" for which to impeach them. Which is why The Tyranny Card is built into Our Constitution. The Framers designed it that way. This is "The End Run" impeachment process we didn't get from Congress, and the route for Congress to take, against a Tyrant. It was a Slam-Dunk case to make! World History is full of examples! Constitutional scholars made millions of dollars writing books and articles about this stuff.

Or, consider Richard Nixon's impeachment. Here's the Nixon Articles of Impeachment

Skip ahead to the Article 2 section...

"This conduct has included one or more of the following:

2. He misused the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Secret Service, and other executive personnel, in violation or disregard of the constitutional rights of citizens, by directing or authorizing such agencies or personnel to conduct or continue electronic surveillance or other investigations for purposes unrelated to national security, the enforcement of laws, or any other lawful function of his office; he did direct, authorize, or permit the use of information obtained thereby for purposes unrelated to national security, the enforcement of laws, or any other lawful function of his office; and he did direct the concealment of certain records made by the Federal Bureau of Investigation of electronic surveillance."

We had our crimes right here, all along!!! The above is infamously called, "Illegal Wiretapping." Bush and Cheney certainly did plenty of illegal wiretapping.

Obama is now doing plenty of illegal wiretapping. As long as he doesn't go after Bush & Cheney for their crimes, Obama can break all the laws he wants. Obama can have all the wars he wants. Not to mention, we have allowed unlimited torture, scores of secret prisons, and any one of us can be "disappeared" - indefinitely detained secretly - without any charges whatsoever, without ever going before a judge in any courtroom.

It is frightening to me when I think about what our future Presidents and our future Congresses will be doing to us. Which is why we are so locked into this disgusting "less evil" and "least worst" tragedy. This also defines insanity - doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result next time. It's not sustainable either. Democracy turns into Fascism somewhere down the line. Soon, it seems to me.

That's why I said, if we cannot have ANY courtroom justice whatsoever for these countless crimes - in total, we have crimes against humanity, we urgently need to expand PEACE norms and practices - especially, participation and reconciliation - for a higher moral standard. Otherwise, imo, it's game-over.

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Poster: unclejohn52 Date: Oct 10, 2010 8:36pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Imagine Impeachment

Man, you're preaching to the choir.

This same ludicrous body can "impeach" a president for a BJ, yet ignore major crimes against humanity is stupefying.

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Poster: dead-head_Monte Date: Oct 10, 2010 8:55pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Imagine Impeachment

It was Pizza!
dead-head_Monte-clinton.gif

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Poster: BataviaSparky Date: Oct 10, 2010 8:57pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Imagine Impeachment

"Biggest disappointment in the current president - not fulfilling campaign promise to end the wars"
AMEN BROTHER!

Course I imagine he could deny he ever promised, and through clever interpretation and twisting of definitions, it would sound like the truth.

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Poster: dead-head_Monte Date: Oct 10, 2010 6:08pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Imagine

Imagine - by John Lennon - YouTube clip with lyrics overlayed
John-Lennon_5.jpg

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

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Poster: unclejohn52 Date: Oct 10, 2010 10:40am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 10/9/40

No war is "good."

I fervently hope there is a special place in hell for child molesters, rapists and those who start wars.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Oct 10, 2010 11:51am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 10/9/40

True; all war is Hell, of course. We might agree at times that war is the lesser of two evils (rare, but I'd argue necessary at times), but it is never "good".

Good pt.

Now, a good war of words is another matter, but the subject of another thread than this one, given it's more serious turn...